Sunday, September 4, 2011

Russian prospective tank engine

New information about Russian prospective tank engine was published recently in the  blog of a known blogger from UVZ . The engine A-85-3 (another name 12N360 )  was over successfully testes on T-95 in 2010 including high altitude and non-standard oils. It has nominal power of 1500 hp with option for uprating up to 2200 hp or derating to 1200-1350 hp. The automatics ensure  defense against overheat. Transmission characteristics are not disclosed yet. The engine is a 4-stroke X-shaped opposite diesel belongs to 2V serial, which includes also the engines for Sprut 125-mm light tank and BMD-3. It is developed by ChTZ, which is now a part of UVZ concern.

Specs:
- Power 1500 hp
- torque backup - 25%
- Fuel consumption - 217,9 g/kW*h (160 g/hp*h, 155 g/hp*h on derated ) - (MTU 883-1500 has only 170 g/hp*h)
- Rate - 2000 R/min
 - Mass - 1550 kg
- 1 hp/kg
- 1088 hp/m3 (MTU 883-1500 has only 949 hp/m3)
- 1845x900x830 (MTU 883-1500 has 1700x964x965)

For comparison the spec of V-93 (V-92S2F), V-92S2 tank diesels:
Lifespan -  1000, 1200 h



and   

25 comments:

  1. Well I guess it makes sense... if you are making heavy, medium and light families of vehicles then you need a family of engines that will have variable power ratings depending on the vehicle they will be used in.

    I rather suspect that if the Armata tank is in the 50-55 ton range that an APC based on the Armata chassis will be in the 40-45 ton range, while a big two gun Coalition type artillery vehicle with an enormous turret might be the heavy 65 ton vehicle in the family.
    The medium vehicles... Boomerang and Kurganets-25 are wheeled and tracked vehicles both in the 25 ton weight class (compared to the 14 ton BTR-80 and 18 ton BMP-3 this means significant armour increases but both vehicles are still supposed to be amphibious), and down to the light weight Kangaroo... (not sure where these Aussie code names are coming from).

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  2. Hi Igor ,

    It was disclosed that Armata would be using Hybrid Engine any updates on that ?

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  3. Hi Austin,
    it was only one isolated report about this without any schedule. It only indicates that the R&D works are under way in this direction. It's absolutely impossible to finish the development of a hybrid power pack in 2-3 years. I'm sure the first Armata platoon will be adopted with A-85-3 diesel, most probably with a derated variant (1200-1350 hp) due to its much higher lifespan.

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  4. Igor actually the report of hybrid engine/Electric drive was put forward by Oleg Sienko in an interview linked below

    http://vpk.name/news/47087_u_menya_net_celi_prokatitsya_na_tanke__oleg_sienko_generalnyii_direktor_oao_npk_uralvagonzavod.html

    One big advantage of having a single type of engine with different hp rating like A-85-3 seems to suggest is it would simplify and stream line the logistics and the same engine with different power rating can be used for the new ICV which is claimed to be ~ 25 T vehical to tanks that can take higher HP engine.

    Do you have more details on A-85-3 engine like its fuel consumption,total engine hours etc ?

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  5. Austin,
    1) I know this interview of course. The development is under way, as I said.

    2) 217,9 g/kW h (160 g/hp h) it's alredy official: http://chtz-uraltrac.ru/catalog/items/206.php (added to the English text)

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  6. Also, why did they chose the new prospective engine 12N360 with an X-configuration? From the picture it looks like a 12-cylinder engine, but why such a configuration. Unlike the current V-engines on T-90, the new engine will have to be "unplugged" from the engine bay to - say, change the injectors (of the below cylinders) or clean it. Also, rather than being compact (compared to current engine), it looks the two turbochargers on either side will take more space than the current engine. The advantage of the Russian tank engines or the power-pack have always been that they are compact compared to their western counterparts. Comparing the whole powerpack of the T-90 to that of the Leclerc, Leopard etc will give us an idea of how compact the Russian units are.

    As I understand, the compact designs of the Russian powerplants are what help the Russian tank designers to have a smaller foorprint for the tank hull - which is very much dependent on the size of the engine bay. Ok I'll post it in Prospective engine thread. Plz reply there.

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  7. to Sniper:
    x-shape lets for pistons to work in opposition for better balance, less vibration, less space. If comparing the dimensions, it finally isnt behind the best MTU engines. 12-piston is for better torque backup: 25%. About whole power-pack I have no reliable information yet.

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  8. Igor,

    Thanks for the reply. I do have a basic idea about the better torque and other characteristics of the X-layout. The current X-engine is compact, no doubt. If it can fit the current engine bay meant for the V-92/93 and maybe the V-96, then it could be the best to happen. After all T-90 with a P-T-W ratio of 30hp/ton would be great! But my main problem is with the on-site work on the engine like cleaning up/replacing the injectors, inspecting the fuel pipes to the 6-cylinders below etc....

    As I said earlier, Russian units are compact compared to their western counterparts and this new engine is no different. From the dimension you posted for the engine (hope so), it can be seen, though there is likely a confusion on the LxBxH.

    The 12N360 is an X-layout with 3-cylinders each on either side and its almost a cube in shape which can be seen from its dimension also (900mm x 830mm).

    Normally the length is taken along the shaft or in-line with the cylinders and hence I think this is the correct dimension for the two engine.

    MTU 883-1500
    L-1700mm x W-964mm x H-965mm

    12N360
    L-830mm x W-1845mm x H-900mm

    I don't know the correct dimension of the 12N360, but I'm guessing the Lxbxh from the visual. The width of the 12N360 is greater with 1845mm an the two turbochargers on either side is adding to that dimension.

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  9. Igor and GarryB,

    Heard about the tragic plane crash of the Russian ice hockey team . My deepest condolence.

    Tragic deaths in India as well due to bomb blasts in Delhi yesterday.

    -Sujoy

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  10. Yes, on RT they were reporting the Delhi blast in the opening headlines and in an hour or so another terrible event happened closer home. 43 lives lost and the remaining 2 in serious condition. 7th Sep 2011 was a bad day... :-(

    RIP

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  11. Quite different events however, one is a tragic mistake or perhaps failing, while the other is a deliberate murder.
    RIP to all victims.
    Hope the problem is corrected and future repeats are avoided in the first case, and the perpetrators are caught and feel justice for their criminal actions.

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  12. While I am am hopeful that the "tragic mistake" will be rectified sooner than later I am less than hopeful that the murders will be brought to justice.

    Anyways ...from your mouth to God's ear..AMEN

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  13. yes, very hard day bros...
    my condolence...

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  14. Heaven Holds The Faithful Departed

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  15. I have two queries:
    -Would the above engine be feasible for installation on the T-90 or would it be too large/heavy for that?

    -Is the above engine designed for high-temperature environments, seeing its cooling system improvements?

    Thank you.

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  16. to igorr

    any update about zhuk ae from maks 2011

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  17. Weight is not really an issue for a tank engine, and regarding size:

    1845x900x830 is the size of the engine above and the sizes of the engines fitted to T-72/-90 series tanks namely the 840hp V-84MS, and the 1,000hp V-92S2 are 1,480 x 896 x 902 and 1,466 x 896 x 902.

    I would say the only question would be the length in terms of fitting it.

    I would also say you would want it derated to 1,300hp so that you don't have to replace the transmission and drive train to handle the extra power... you could just drop the unit in and also take advantages of extended engine life and improved fuel economy with a derated engine.

    After a period of time new materials should allow power to be increased without effecting life span and reliability too much to cope with weight increases over time.

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  18. Actually for Russia the more interesting proposition is all those T-80Us with powerful but thirsty gas turbine engines... the GTD-1250 is 1,494 x 1,042 x 888mm in dimensions though it only weighs 1,050kgs replacing it with this engine even derated to 1,300hp would probably give similar power to weight ratio... the extra 50hp will be lost with the extra ton the engine weighs, but the fuel consumption should give a leap in driving range.
    Of course it probably makes more sense to gift all the T-80s to the Ukraine with any useful bits removed of course and just focus on Russian tanks for the Russian Army.

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  19. Garry,

    some clarification would be nice.
    1) Is the Armata gong to be a 6-wheel or 7-wheel MBT?
    2) Is the object 195 hull a new one or a lengthened T-80 hull with 7-wheels to accomodate

    I'm asking this because, I feel it will clear how the 12N360 is installed in T-95/going to be installed in the Armata and if the 12N360 will be available as an upgrade for the current T-90. I'm not sure if the 12N360 (with twin turbo, W-1845mm) can be installed transverse inside the T-90 hull. It might be possible without the turbochargers (i.e the de-rated version with 1200-1350hp) as taking out the two TC will make it comparable (though still wider?) to the V-92/93.

    From my understanding of the engine placement, it looks like the T-95 (object195) hull had to be of that length and 7-wheeled because(?) of the new X engine and other factors.

    All the V-engines in T-series are installed transverse. i.e L-1480mm of the V-92 engine is accommodated inside the width of the tank hull with the engine width along the tanks length being W-964mm.

    In the case of 12N360 (from my understanding from the pictures), the engine installed in transverse will be L-830mm and the width of the engine W-1845mm (along the tank hull length). Which obviously means this X-engine installation in transverse will require a lengthened hull with 7-wheels or a lengthened hull will spaced 6-wheels.


    Igor,

    pictures of the V-93 please....and any new pictures of the V-92 as well.


    Two photos of 12N360 from the expo
    http://www.66.ru/news/hitech/102676/photoreportage/#70
    It looks like ChTZ have learned few lessons on how to display the engines. Unlike the "blad" & "boring" paints all over the body, they displayed the 12N360 at the expo in its "original" body colors.

    http://foto.rg.ru/gall/images/eafd2928/91d050a3.jpg (only top part visible)

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  20. There will be two basic versions of the Armata... one will have the engine at the rear and be a conventional tank, while some models will have front mounted engine where that is useful for its role as in an IFV to allow rear ramp entry/exit.

    I don't know of anyone who knows for sure whether Armata will be 6 or 7 wheel, but remember any change to the overall dimensions has implications in terms of transport by aircraft, by sea, by rail etc etc.

    The primary reason AFAIK for extending the chassis on the Black Eagle was to increase the angle of the frontal armour to improve protection and create more hull space for electronics.

    By the look of the T-90AM they seem to have improved frontal armour simply by making it thicker.

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  21. 6 wheel chassis for Armata was confirms by UVZ

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  22. @Igor
    Well maybe a solution could be if they like the Turret with the T-90AM why not fit the turret to an Armata chassis?
    The heavy brigades are going to need lots of chassis for all sorts of vehicles so they are going to need an enormous production capacity for the chassis in comparison with the "tank turret" bits, so it makes sense that chassis production needs to be 10x bigger... and if the T-90AM turret is ready it would make sense to produce them both.

    Especially if the Armata turret is expensive.

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  23. GarryB,
    The army tops yet composed the official request of specs for modernized T-90. May be it doesnt need it at all. Gen Makarov's statement - is his very preliminary personal opinion.

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  24. Hello

    I have a question. I'm looking views with dimension for this russian old engine B-58-7.
    Could anybody help?
    Thanks for any kind of help.

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